Podcast: Hutch Discusses Pension Maximization with Jethro Jones from "Transformative Principal"

My wife is an educator. She teaches TK.

They’ve asked her to be an administrator before, but she she has a gift. She loves doing what she does.

That’s good. When we’re in the grocery store, like, little kids and babies will always be looking at her. She just has that energy. So she’s right where she needs to be. And when I actually started in the life insurance industry, I actually, before I learned about infinite banking, I learned about something called pension maximization because that was the biggest crux of our retirement plan was this state funded pension. And there actually is a strategy where you can pair it with life insurance to make sure you’re able to get the highest possible pension payout. Now what we can talk about today is how we can pair all of those things together because the educators that are listening to your show and learning how to use Robert Robinhood, excellent interface by the way I trade options myself.

Again, they’re only gonna do that for a small fraction of their money to try and earn that extra alpha. Meanwhile, they’re gonna have an emergency fund in cash or a certain amount of money in cash.

And meanwhile, they have this massive part of the retirement fund sitting in STRS or PERS or whatever whatever it is that is promising them income for the rest of their life.

And there’s a way to weave a life insurance product designed a certain way and and a way to funnel money through there to work enhance all of those efforts.

Yeah. So so let’s look at this from from that perspective. And there’s there’s a lot of different paths we can go down to talk about this, but we wanna talk about that pension thing today because that is, something that pretty much everybody listening to this probably has.

I have a pension in the state of Utah. I only taught there for eight years, but it exists. And so Nice. What can we do with that pension? How can we maximize that so it’ll be as beneficial as possible to us?

Yeah. So let let’s let’s talk about that, and we can weave it back into because, really, a life insurance policy that’s designed for Pension Max or infinite banking is kinda like a now and later. Remember those candies, now and laters? Right?

They taste good now, and they taste good later. They last forever. At at at one point, I thought about using that as part of my branding, but it’s copyrighted even though they don’t exist anymore. But, really, it should work something like that.

Right? Like, one of these now and later candies. It it can be there. Its existence and the fact that it’s there can help you maximize your pension whenever you decide to take it.

You’re a young guy, Jethro. I assume it’ll be another ten, fifteen, twenty years before you do that. Obviously, the longer you wait, the more you you get as a lifetime payment. But you can actually use the equity in that policy to help support your whatever ventures you’re doing to build wealth, whether it’s investing in real estate or trading options or whatever that is.

So what does that mean? Oh, go ahead.

What does that mean? You can use the value? Just is that what you said? You can use the value in that pension?

No. You can use the value the cash value of the life insurance policy Okay. To enhance those other things. So let’s talk about that for a second. A life and a permanent life insurance policy always has two parts.

It has a death benefit and it has a cash value.

Now with a whole life insurance policy, which I realize with some media celebrities is a dirty word, but when you design a whole life policy properly, there is a way to actually compress those commissions to actually overfunded to where instead of saying, what’s the least amount of money I can pay for the most amount of life insurance? The way we solve it for our clients is we’re saying, what’s the least amount of insurance we can wrap around your cash so that the cash performs well?

And because the cost, the commissions, the fees so to speak, contrary to popular belief are not based as much around how much money you’re putting in the policy. It’s more so based on how much death benefit it’s buying.

Mhmm. And so when you have a permanent life insurance and it has these two parts, the death benefit part is what will actually help you enhance your pension and we’ll get to that.

But there’s always a cash value. Think of it almost as like the equity in your home. Like, if you sold your home right now, it would go for a certain purchase price.

But you may not have that much equity in there if there’s a loan against it. Right?

So the equity is the difference between what the purchase price would be and how much, how much that loan is. With life insurance policy with no loans, really, you’re prepaying for a future death benefit, and so you actually build equity in the cash value that you can use along the way.

And so let’s just go back to the death benefit portion for a moment. We’ll get to the cash value part when we talk about the options.

The existence of a permanent death benefit, a death benefit that doesn’t go away is contractually guaranteed, actually allows you to get a higher pension payout than if you didn’t have it.

Oh, here’s why. How does that work? So Yeah. So having a death benefit allows me to get a higher pension payout from TERS or PERS or whatever it is when I retire?

Yep. Here’s why.

Okay. Tell me tell me about that.

When you go to retire, and maybe you’ve already seen some of these estimates, they’re gonna give you different options. Like, they’ll call it option a, option b, option c, option one, option two, option three, or the hundred percent option, the seventy five percent option, the fifty percent option is maybe a lot of people are familiar with, which basically the hundred percent option basically says, hey. You can have a hundred percent of what you’re vested in this pension. Let’s just call it let’s just call it ten grand a month.

Right? For just round numbers. You could have ten grand a month for the rest of your life, but if you die, your heirs get nothing.

Mhmm. And a lot of people are married and so they’re not gonna choose the hundred percent option or option a. They’re not gonna check that box. There’s gonna be a box below it that says, look, instead of ten thousand a month, we’ll give you nine thousand a month but if you die, if you die, your wife will get half. She’ll get forty five hundred a month.

And a lot of people will choose that.

Right? If they say, I want my wife to have the whole thing. They’ll say, okay, we’ll give you eighty five hundred a month and if you die, your wife, your husband, your surviving spouse will get all eighty five hundred. And so, obviously, the more you promise to other people in the future, the less you get now. Right?

Yep.

Let me ask you this question, Jeff, though.

It Let me let me just ask you this. Just think of this like an educator right now. Don’t think of it in terms of product, but if you were gonna give money to an institution like TERS or PERS to promise you to promise somebody else who you love money when you die, what would that product be called out on the free market?

If you’re gonna give an institution money to make sure somebody else gets money when you die, what’s that called?

That’s called life insurance.

It’s called life insurance. And what’s interesting is educators always have a very significant life insurance decision they have to make when they retire, which is arguably when life insurance is the most expensive it will ever be and the hardest to get.

Yeah. Well and this is why I wanted to talk to you because, after watching the video about this, it became very clear that you can make this decision in your twenties or thirties or forties, and it it seems like it would be a lot cheaper to make that decision now than to make that decision when you retire, when you may have other health complications, or you were a cancer survivor, or any of those kinds of things that really affect your ability to to get that kind of life insurance later in life, or you’re obese. Absolutely.

I’ll take it to a different level with you. It even still pencils if you’re in your mid fifties, and here’s why. With any actuarial assumptions, and actuarial just means any insurance company has actuaries.

They’re they’re math geeks that figure out exactly how many people die. Like, the joke is insurance companies already know when you’re gonna die. Maybe not your date exact exactly, but they already know with given your health today when you’re gonna die on average. And those same actuaries are who work for TERS and PERS and STRS. They hire actuaries to figure out what kind of pension pension you’re entitled to. And so the reason why it’s still pencils for people in their fifties, as long as they’re healthy, is because with any kind of major sweeping actuarial assumption, They’re pricing in the good, bad, and the ugly health wise.

So if your average health or above average health, you can and you can qualify for that in the free market with a private insurance policy, you actually get, call it, better pricing than when you just get lumped in with the good, bad, and the ugly because the actuaries for TRS and PERS, they don’t know what your health is. And so they have to give you the average where probably some of the the your listeners right now, the people they work with, aren’t in the best health.

But they can qualify for their own health and just naturally get better pricing. As long as people can get a standard rating or better, if they get a preferred rating or preferred plus, we found that it pencils almost right up until retirement.

Now that okay. So let’s let’s take a step back again. You said if you it it your death benefit upon retirement, your your death benefit, having this life insurance policy actually helps you get more money from from your retirement, your pension. What is which one of those does that work? Does that mean you get the hundred percent option where you get all and your spouse gets nothing? Is is that what you mean?

So it could be, and this is the math that we help our clients do. So we would have them run the printouts from TERS, PERS, STRS, and show the different options, and then they can clearly see how much they’d be giving up in retirement.

And we show them, like, look, as long as you have x amount of death benefit, that can exist.

And we can actually we pair that with another calculator. It’s actually an annuity calculator, which is another insurance product. That use actuaries.

We’re not saying to buy an annuity now but we’re saying like, look, if you died the day after you retired, could we take this death benefit that your family would get and put it into an annuity, a guaranteed annuity that would create the same after tax payment?

If we can do that, then yes. Having the existence of a whole life insurance policy with a guaranteed death benefit actually gives you the confidence to go in there and check the hundred percent box.

Mhmm.

Because the reason why we don’t check the hundred percent box is because we’re afraid that if we die, our families are gonna be left destitute. Our spouses are gonna be left destitute. And so we don’t want that to happen, so we choose the fifty percent option.

And that makes it so that we are sure that after we die, then our beneficiary is going to continue on, and have money coming in, which is your spouse because your kids don’t get anything from the pension. Right?

Well, it’s so just so everybody knows, Jethro and I did not script this because I wanted Jethro to be raw So we can really have these questions.

I’m sweating more in this interview than I have in months.

Well, it is quite warm. We’re gonna give you that too, Jethro. So so here’s the deal. What you just said is gold, and here’s why. Here’s why owning your own life insurance policy is better.

Not only from a numerical standpoint.

We can calculate that. But you brought up something else. What happens if you check the fifty percent box, you never heard this podcast, you didn’t know us, you and your wife constantly check the fifty percent box to make sure that she’s taken care of, and the day after you retire, you’re driving off on vacation and you get into a car wreck, and you both die, how much do your kids get?

Well, they don’t get anything.

So all that money, all that equity that you paid in and was contributed on your behalf is now gone.

So it’s not gone. It just gets disseminated amongst the other educators. It’s kinda like the old Roman soldier. This is how life insurance was started.

A bunch of Roman soldiers were going off to battle and one of the wives went around with a cup and everybody threw a coin in the cup and whoever’s husbands didn’t come back from war split up the cup. That’s the origins of life insurance. And that’s basically what happens when you choose the fifty percent box. But let’s just say on the other hand, you listen to this podcast, you did some calculations, you knew that your wife would get or your wife or husband would get the after the same as the fifty percent box, but you could take the hundred percent box.

And let’s just say you did it early enough to where your policy’s totally paid up by the time of your retirement, so you don’t have even have a bill, But then you go off on vacation and you die that first day. So you want you die.

Your spouse dies. She’s the primary beneficiary. Who’s the secondary beneficiary is gonna be on that life insurance policy?

Probably your kids.

So would they get something?

If through the life insurance policy, but not through the pension still.

That’s right.

Yeah.

There’s only four possible things that can happen.

So after you go in in whatever box you’re gonna check, doesn’t matter, like, let’s not even talk about hundred percent, seventy five, fifty percent box. Whatever box you check, there’s only four possible things that could happen.

You and your spouse can both live to life expectancy.

That’s that’s the most common and the best possible outcome. So if both you and your spouse lived a life expectancy, would you have been better off checking the hundred percent box or the fifty percent box?

A hundred percent for sure.

Right.

And so how about this?

And this depends on jurisdiction.

You check the fifty percent box to make sure, in this case, we’ll just say your wife, Jethro.

Your wife is protected. You check the fifty percent box.

She goes on a girl’s trip, and then she dies the day after you check the fifty percent box.

There’s some jurisdictions that will let you choose a new beneficiary.

There’s many of them don’t. You just you just kinda lost those coins in the tin cup. Yeah. Right? So if you check the fifty percent box and then your wife dies early, your beneficiary, would you have been better off checking the hundred percent box?

Yeah.

Yeah.

The other one we talked about is both you and your spouse die early and that’s the real risk of not check that’s that’s the risk that’s there, but we can actually calculate it to where we make sure that everybody’s taken care of, including the kids. And that’s not the risk. The risk is with this last one.

The risk is you check the hundred percent box but then you die early and your wife’s less left with nothing. So we can calculate it to where we make sure the policy will do at least that.

At least that. And the the fulcrum point, the point of testing is the day after you retire. What’s great is every year you live past that, now you actually have too much death benefit because you don’t your wife isn’t gonna live as long. Meaning, if you died five years after you took out the life insurance policy, the amount she needs in an annuity five years later when she’s five years closer to the grave.

We don’t have to put in as much in annuity so therefore, you don’t need as much death benefit which means you as the educator with the pension get to spend a little bit of your cash value along the way as a supplement which will lower the death benefit but you don’t need as much. Every year you live, you don’t need as much death benefit to make sure that the fifty percent option is provided for your spouse. Does that make sense? That was that was confusing a little bit.

Yeah. So so the the question then is, if you have the the life insurance policy, then your your your heirs, your kids are taken care of regardless of which of those scenarios happens. Right?

True. Going back to the four options, the the one of the major benefits of this situation is you get to pick and choose your beneficiary and you get to change it as you go.

And so, obviously, if you ex you when you have a life insurance policy, the more you spend of the cash value, the less death benefits there for your wife. But as you get older, she doesn’t need as much death benefit. And then, obviously, if you die or whenever you die and she gets the death benefit, that’s for her. But if both of you die at the same time, yes, the kids are taken care of. They’re just next in line. You’re not sharing it with a bunch of soldiers in the tin cup of the pension. You have your own private life insurance policy that goes to your heirs based on your health, your premium at that time.

Yeah.

Okay. So having this set up then makes it so that you have better options at your retirement because then you get to decide how you wanna do that. And you may still choose to do the fifty percent because you even though you feel like you’re taken care of, you may want your wife or your spouse to have even more money after you’re gone for whatever reason. Right? So but you you get to choose that.

Whereas, otherwise, you just you you are more yourself into a corner.

You get to that meaning you painted yourself into a corner. That’s the only option. And, you know, we get the bulletins from the from the STRS, and it’s like, oh, well, we changed the assumptions with inflation and everything else. You’re you’re totally at their mercy. And so I think it when you and I were talking about your podcast, when I thought this might resonate with your listener, it seems like what you’re teaching them is to take more control of their situation. Right?

Yeah.

Their educators, Their specialty is in educating children. But to educate yourself about your own money options, not to the point where it’s like another full time job, but this is something that you can do to exactly give you that, to give you more control and more optionality for when you go to check that box. Not to mention, as you’re paying for this life insurance policy, there is actually cash value that builds up along the way that you can use for whatever you need. Right? If the bottom falls out of the real estate market and there’s, right, opportunity abound or now all of a sudden some of the stocks that you were looking at, valuation just got cut in half because, you know, the sky is falling and right? And you wanna own these companies, you can actually use the cash value in your policy, right, to acquire some of these assets.

Okay. So so that I think is gonna be a question for our next conversation. But I have another question about this building up to it. Yes. What what you’re talking about is essentially going to require me to have another payment that I’m putting something into over the course of my career. Right?

Yep.

So what does that look like? And and, like, we hinted at that a little bit, but you can use that money for other things leading up to that. But what does that look like? How much is that going to be? Because my TERS contribution that the district pays is typically, like, seven to fifteen percent depending on where you’re at in the system, what your level is.

It’s a big number. So let’s let’s talk about that.

Where nobody likes a new bill. And so whenever people hear about any kind of insurance, they just automatically equate it to, like, I don’t need another bill.

Right? I only got so much coming in. I got my own kids I wanna put through college. Right?

We wanna do stuff. We wanna go on vacation. I’m not saying to just stop your life. However, a strategic redeployment of cash flows is possible.

And what I mean by that is a lot of money is passing through everybody’s hands. Six figures a year through everybody on this on this call is just passing through our hands.

And where the infinite banking comes into play, and I realize we’ll talk more about this, is you can redeploy some of the money that you’re normally just spending for your predictable inflows and outflows and pump it through a policy designed to be your own bank and it will naturally have its own velocity and momentum.

It is gonna require you to carve off a certain amount of money and you get to choose what that is.

Where we typically help find it for people, like some of the places we we find people money is places like this.

When people are overpaying on mortgages that are three percent, I understand if you’re overpaying a mortgage that’s seven or eight percent, but overpaying a mortgage that’s three percent, in spite of what you’ve heard, has not been tested measured mathematically that that’s a good idea. So any overpayments of mortgages at that low money, it’s almost like getting free money. You’re borrowing below inflation, and if the rate of return that you can get on this policy, just the cash value, long term can beat the hurdle rate for the debt you’re trying to knock out, this is an easy place to redeploy money that’s really not serving you. Because as soon as you overpay the mortgage, it’s out of your control.

Mhmm. If you want it back from the bank, they have to give you some other kind of loan. Right. I just got approved for a HELOC today. They approved me today, but if the sky started falling and I wanted to buy stocks when they lost thirty or fifty percent, that’s usually the time they don’t approve loans.

Yeah. Exactly. Yep.

So that’s one place. Another place that’s really, really easy is when they’re contributing to a four zero three b or a four fifty seven, what’s that money for? Why why would your audience be contributing to a four zero three b or four fifty seven? For what purpose, Jethro?

That’s because we don’t have the pension, or or we want an additional retirement support.

That’s it. So in in my wife’s district, they call it pension two.

You have your pension, but they you contribute they advocate and suggest that you should contribute to a four zero three b and or four fifty seven for supplemental retirement income. Yeah. Well, wait a second. Well, let’s just think about this for a moment.

To me, that’s almost like having one foot on the gas and one foot on the brakes. Yeah. Because the foot on the gas the foot on the gas is putting money in a four zero three, four zero three b, and four fifty seven to get extra money in retirement. But then if you have a strategy that’s going to cause you to paint yourself in a corner and check the fifty percent box that lowers your pension, that’s the foot on the brakes that they don’t even know they have on it.

And so if the purpose of whatever cash flow, whatever financial energy you’re pumping into a four zero three b, four fifty seven is to enhance your pension, well, we don’t know what the stock market’s gonna do between now and then.

It it will probably enhance your pension to some degree, but we don’t know how much. But we can predictably say, let’s just make sure you get one hundred percent of your pension. Or even if you go from fifty to seventy five, because maybe you can’t afford a policy big enough for the hundred, but you can get from fifty to seventy five, isn’t that a better way to get supplemental retirement income?

Yeah. For sure.

So so let’s talk about that cost piece because you there’s gonna be the cost to it. And so do you need to be super wealthy to start this? Like, can you start with a lower insurance policy? And and maybe it’s just it’s not even to the fifty percent level, so you still have to start with fifty percent. Can you adjust it over time? Is it something that you can say when I’m a a first year teacher, I can do a policy that’s this big, and then after ten years of teaching, I can change the policy and make it bigger. Can can that kind of stuff happen until you start figuring out, like, how you can actually afford it?

It’s a great it’s a great question. There’s a lot in there, but let’s Yeah. Let’s get them all. So the truth of the matter is once you start any kind of permanent insurance policy, you can’t increase it without underwriting again.

That means, like, getting medically tested and all that stuff. And by the way, thankfully, like, a AI is all the buzz these days. There are multiple companies now that are doing AI underwriting that if you’re pretty healthy and aren’t on prescriptions and everything else, a lot of times you fill out a DocuSign application for fifteen minutes. They you give them permission to go scan your health records, scan your prescription records, scan your driving record, and they go out to the web, and, like, we’re getting, like, twenty four hour approvals at the best rating.

So you may not even need that. So the answer is you cannot increase it without reunderwriting.

However, we have workarounds for that. So most people know what a term insurance policy is. Have you ever heard of convertible term insurance?

I’ve heard of it, but I don’t totally understand it.

Yeah. It’s it’s pretty simple. Like, I like I like in it to renting with the option to buy. First of all, when you have term insurance coverage, that’s like it’s like a renting.

Right? You’re renting coverage for ten years. You’re renting coverage for twenty years. Right? You have this rental agreement, whatever it is.

When as long as you pay rent, you have coverage. You stop paying, you you you get evicted. Right? And when the lease is up, you’re done unless you renegotiate a new lease.

Obviously, with life insurance, the older you are, the terms will be worse. Right? Mhmm. You’re not as good of a tenant, the life insurance company.

And when you buy a whole life insurance, it’s almost like buying versus renting.

Now you’ve bought the property. You’ve bought the right to that million dollar death benefit or five hundred thousand dollar death benefit or whatever it is. And again, your cash value accrues equity over time. So just going back to how we use convertible term, convertible term is renting with the option to buy.

So there are such contracts out there, like in the real estate market, you can rent or lease with the option to buy. You can actually do that with convertible terms. So most of your listeners probably have a term policy. They have a million dollar term policy or two million dollar term policy.

We can refinance that term policy or just add on to it. And that not only gives them more coverage that just temporary rental coverage now, but whatever rating they get on that term policy, they can actually convert that to permanent without having to retest.

The pricing will adjust according to the age of that time, but that gives them the guaranteed right to lock it. If they get the best rating, they can lock that in. And whenever they get a raise so, like, my wife just got, like, an eleven percent raise because they didn’t get raises for, like, the last three or four years in the union. So when they get something like that and all of a sudden there’s extra cash flow, they can take whatever convertible term they have. And with the convertible term, it’s almost like a plot of land. You can bifurcate the land. You can carve off a piece of it, convert some of it, and keep the rest as churn.

So the the reason why I asked that question is that it my impression has been that you have to make this decision early on, and then Mhmm. And then you’re stuck into it for the rest of your life unless you wanna go through this big hassle. And and it sounds like there is a way to structure it so that you make the decision early on, and then you work towards that throughout your life. And you adjust as time goes on rather than saying, well, I made the choice when I was twenty one and my first year teaching, and now, like, I’m just stuck with it. And Yeah. That’s no good for anybody.

So you’re you’re right. The the misconception you had is probably pretty common. Probably a lot of your listeners have the same miss misconception. When you’re working with knowledgeable agents, there’s a way to structure a combination of products to where it gives you, again, a lot of optionality, and you can layer into it. You can layer into it as cash flow allows.

Yeah.

Yeah. I like that. Okay. So we’ve got a lot that we’ve talked about. We’ve got a lot to think about in preparation for another conversation.

One of the things that we wanna talk about next time is why making this decision allows you a benefit later, but then also allows you to do things with that money as you’re getting towards retirement rather than waiting to have access to it when you do retire.

Now we all know with our, retirement plans, we can’t access them until we are I think it’s fifty seven and a half at the very early and a half.

Fifty nine and a half. Thank you. Fifty nine and a half at the very earliest. And so if you need access to any money before then, for whatever reason, you can’t touch any retirement policies. So so we’re gonna talk about next time how to access that money that, that will benefit you later before you get to that point. So you don’t have to wait till you’re fifty nine and a half.

That’s more about the infinite banking type stuff that, that you teach about. So where can people go to learn more about what we’ve talked about today, like maximizing the pension?

Sure. So I have I have a video that’s been on YouTube for a long time. When when you look at the cover, it’s actually a picture of my wife with her hundred percent, seventy five, fifty percent option right there. If you go to banking truce dot com slash pension or pensions, I’m gonna have that redirect straight to that video.

It’s like a little Easter egg because it doesn’t necessarily have to do with infinite banking. It’s really a niche strategy amongst educators that has been around forever. Like, if you just look up pension maximization online, you’ll see it’s been been happening forever. But, again, it just it just makes sense.

So it’s like a little eleven minute video that I made. And I think given this podcast, it I realized how many people are in the dark about this. And since then, our clients have not oh, excuse me. Our agents have not only helped teachers, principals, firemen, police officers, FBI agents, postmasters.

We’ve helped a lot of people that have this similar thing but it’s really just a niche thing for people with government pensions. And it it is the crux, the core of your retirement. So putting the most energy, I think it’s great. Learning the option strategy and the stuff you’re teaching them, I think will really help.

I enjoy it too. It’s fun, but making sure that the base, the core part of the retirement is increased on a guaranteed basis, I think is so important. Where it’ll help you to look at the video just to understand the concept. Where the rubber milli excuse me.

Where the rubber really meets the road is to have your numbers modeled out. And if you go to banking truce dot com slash schedule, you can you can actually put something in there or on banking truce dot com slash pension, there’ll be a link to schedule. And to really do this well, it is definitely more science than art, where we not only need the pension numbers but we’re gonna stress test that and cross reference that with not only insurance rates but future annuity rates on the age of your surviving spouse to really stress test and to make sure at no point are you worse off than if you check the fifty percent option.

What most people find though is that not only are they protected at least to the level of that fifty percent option, but that every year they live, they have all this equity in the cash value that, yes, you can use along the way now, but when you retire, what’s so powerful about that cash value, and I don’t know if you knew this, Jethro, but it’s actually tax free. You can take it from life insurance tax free almost like a Roth.

And it’s because life insurance is afforded special tax treatment because they do so much for widows and orphans.

The government basically incentivizes that people put money into life insurance policies that don’t go away because it does provide a social good. That’s less widows and orphans they need to take care of. So they give you this ancillary Roth like benefit in your cash value. And why that’s so important is every educator that’s listening here, all their pensions are gonna be fully taxable, but fully susceptible to future tax changes.

I don’t know about you, but I could think of a reason or two or thirty five trillion.

Yeah.

And I’m talking trillion dollars in national debt, why taxes need to go up for everybody, and the money that’s in your life insurance will be immune from that. So having having a retirement supplement is important, but having a retirement supplement that’s also tax free is also very important.

Yeah. Very good. So two actions from today. Number one, banking truce dot com slash pension.

Go watch that video so you can see what it all looks like. And then banking truce dot com slash schedule to model it out for yourself and see what it could look like. And, I I think if you are interested in this, if this sounds intriguing, definitely go do both of those things. And if you have more questions, send me an email.

Mention me on social media. Reach out to Hutch as well.

Hutch, thanks so much for being part of the show today. I really appreciate it.

That was great. Thanks for having me.